Gameplay Quirks
One of the major gameplay variations within Halo 2 results due to the BXR. While a player should always attempt to effectively use all of the possibilities at his disposal to achieve victory BXR has grown beyond any conceivable limits. While I was playing a quite a bit the past few weeks in preparation for MLG Dallas I realized the fact that gameplay is funnelled into very few possibilities. Come face to face with an opponent and your options are either smack BXB or BXR them. While the BXB (H2 Double Melee) is typically much easier to land and much more reliable (due to the fact that H2 auto-corrects for user-error in reticule alignment by lunging) the BXR will kill faster if successfully landed. In the event of a face to face fight simply shooting your opponent with your BR is pointless due to the fact that he runs much faster then you while you run backwards, and with his lunge he will be able to land a melee.
The face to face fight in Halo 1 has many more levels of variance allowing for user choice. When conronted face to face with an opponent one player may attempt to spin his opponent and 3 or 4 shot them with the pistol, or they may assault rifle melee them, or double melee them and let the grenade kill them, or melee them one time headshot them, or shoot them twice and melee them. This variation allows for a player to quickly assess the situation, their position, and weapon set and decide on the best course of action for victory. In Halo 2 however as I witnessed at MLG the majority of the players in a face to face fight simply go into auto-pilot and their muscle memory takes over jamming down BXR.
While I have no problem with the BXR's ability to kill I do have a problem with the lack of risk for the reward it offers. If a player were to attempt a high damage maneuver such as a double melee in H1 they were faced with the risk of being damaged by their own grenade. This balancing factor is used throughout genres of videogames. Fighting games use a similar principle for high-damage maneuvers by making them more high-risk, which can leave the player attempting them vulnerable for a small moment if they are unsuccessful.
On another note I find it somewhat humerous how MLG has eliminated the most drastic change in Halo 2, dual wielding. I'm sure the Bungie brainstorming sessions thought that dual-wielding was going to be the next cool thing and be fantastic. Whereas in reality it resulted in dumb gameplay where users simply smash down their triggers. I actually like using dual wield magnum right hand and SMG left hand in Midship FFA matches just because it makes people feel stupid when they get killed by a dual wielder.
While I had a fun time at MLG in reality the most fun I had was saturday evening and night lanning with Yoda (who let us stay at his house), Exile, DSmooth, and the rest of my teammates TXAggie Optimus, Prince & DatBoyCold. While we played 4v4 Friday night and Saturday morning I don't think any of us really enjoyed ourselves nearly as much as we did when we played 2v2 H1, regardless of the outcome of the games.
The face to face fight in Halo 1 has many more levels of variance allowing for user choice. When conronted face to face with an opponent one player may attempt to spin his opponent and 3 or 4 shot them with the pistol, or they may assault rifle melee them, or double melee them and let the grenade kill them, or melee them one time headshot them, or shoot them twice and melee them. This variation allows for a player to quickly assess the situation, their position, and weapon set and decide on the best course of action for victory. In Halo 2 however as I witnessed at MLG the majority of the players in a face to face fight simply go into auto-pilot and their muscle memory takes over jamming down BXR.
While I have no problem with the BXR's ability to kill I do have a problem with the lack of risk for the reward it offers. If a player were to attempt a high damage maneuver such as a double melee in H1 they were faced with the risk of being damaged by their own grenade. This balancing factor is used throughout genres of videogames. Fighting games use a similar principle for high-damage maneuvers by making them more high-risk, which can leave the player attempting them vulnerable for a small moment if they are unsuccessful.
On another note I find it somewhat humerous how MLG has eliminated the most drastic change in Halo 2, dual wielding. I'm sure the Bungie brainstorming sessions thought that dual-wielding was going to be the next cool thing and be fantastic. Whereas in reality it resulted in dumb gameplay where users simply smash down their triggers. I actually like using dual wield magnum right hand and SMG left hand in Midship FFA matches just because it makes people feel stupid when they get killed by a dual wielder.
While I had a fun time at MLG in reality the most fun I had was saturday evening and night lanning with Yoda (who let us stay at his house), Exile, DSmooth, and the rest of my teammates TXAggie Optimus, Prince & DatBoyCold. While we played 4v4 Friday night and Saturday morning I don't think any of us really enjoyed ourselves nearly as much as we did when we played 2v2 H1, regardless of the outcome of the games.
posted by Annihil8or at 7:35 PM
13 Comments:
After much debate and analysis, I came to the realization that Halo 2 was an experiment on many fronts. Melee lunging, dual wielding, the matchmaking system, etc. Clearly some things worked and some did not. I would squarely put the blame on Bungie and their apparent lack of direction when they were making the game. We all know from the Special Edition DVD, the final product was a result of starting over halfway through development and rushing to get the game out before the end of the Xbox's life-cycle.
Halo came to be the game it is because of numerous years of development and refinement. To a certain extent Bungie had that luxury with H2, but they wasted it.
I agree with you sacrifice, bungie did wasted their time, they never really planned out halo 2 as much as they did Halo 1.
Some things I absolutely love in H2, (matchmaking) but others I hate, (melee/sword lunging...)
Also does anyone notice how many problems lunging has created. For example if to people press B at the same time then they would go through each other, but in Halo 1 they both would die. Which was pretty funny.
Duel wielding, let me think what's wrong with this. OH YES! It's doesn't use much skill to use. All you do is fight the recoil and pray to god you get a kill. Where as the battle rifle is the exact opposite.
I belive bungie can pull duel weilding off but it needs to be re-evaluated.
Just my thoughts...
All great points. The balance of different weapons and strategies is a failure in Halo 2. Dual wielding can also take skill, for instance dual wielding magnums (before the update). When we were first playing the French version on XBC we played BR start magnum backup, and Darkman was sick with dual mags, it was 9 shots every time. Now the only dual wielding you see is SMG/plasma rifle total spray and pray style.
The progression of weapon strength in Halo 1 is a great thing to point out as well. I can recall often times my teammate facing a shotgun guy up close with his AR drawn and me screaming "pull back pull back! tap tap tap!" victory can be achieved when properly used.
You can look at the two games from one perspective sacrifice and say that Bungie tweaked and perfected Halo 1, which is what any game developer does, or you can look at the fact that they were forced to put their computer game onto a console. From the latter perspective if can be inferred that a good PC game transferred to a console creates a great console game, however the opposite is not true. If you allready have the computer version out the console version will most likely be underwhelming as well. Much like any medium taken from its true form can often be (makes me think of the BBC tv show "Coupling" and the crappy American version).
In reality I do love matchmaking, the convenience and ease of use is fantastic. However I'm probably not gonna be playing H2 much anymore since I don't enjoy it all that much, and have no motivation to remain good. How much money would you pay for an Xbox Live enabled Halo 1? I'd definitely pay upwards of $100.
Oh yes, H1 on xbl, now that will be the day. Of course I will suck because I never played any good players in that game.
Anywho, I agree with you annihil8or, the ease of getting into a game with because of matchmaking is the main reason why Halo 2 has never left the top spot on xbl since it's debut. It also makes ranks truthful to people's skill. I always wonder why the hell other developers refuse to make a online system like H2. (Of course the only exception is Quake 4 for the 360)
I think it would be absolutely amazing if another developer mixed H2 matchmaking with the 360's trueskill system. Oh hum, looks like we have to wait for Halo 3.
Oh yes, I wanted to briefly talk about duel-weilding. I just wanted everyone's idea's on how the could fix duel-wielding and intergrate it with stratergies of Halo. We all know that DWing should destroy at close range, but should fail at long. Now here comes a problem. Right now in Halo 2 the BR is the multi-purpose weapon that can beat every other weapon. (Except the sword...) This is because of the glitches, you know the ones..., so a BR can kill any duel-wielder. But in Halo 3 BXR most likely won't be in it, but if it was allowed to stay do you think it should be allowed if bungie did fix dwing?
Anyways, I think a bungie should increase the recoil when the a player duel-wields. This will make the player pluse a dwing weapon for it to be effective. Also bungie needs to find away to incorperate the needler. Maybe the whole problem with the needler is the design. Maybe bungie should change it but with the same feel, maybe something like a shot-gun needler or something.
Ugh that was long. Sorry for any SP mistakes or gammer, I'm way to lazy to check.
Just my thoughts...
I want to touch upon the dual wielding topic.
Prior to the 1.1 update, dual wielding wasn't quite so bad. Dual Magnums were fantastic and they actually required skill. Why is that? Well, for one you're rewarded for precision (headshots) and said precision is harder to achieve because there's less auto-aim. (My belief is that auto-aim was upped in this game because it would reach a wider audience and to help compensate for the lag.)
Why can't those same basic ideas be applied to the other DW combos? Auto-aim certainly needs to be lowered or become non-existant with DW. And like zennith just said, recoil could be added to balance DW. Something needs to be done because DWing is too powerful and dumbs down the gameplay.
The problem with dual wielding the increased spread. I've experimented with modding programs for the purposes of awesome and I determined that if you simply double the damage of the SMG it is a seriously awesome weapon. But in stock halo 2, there's so much spread when dual wielding smg and/or plasma rifle that unless your body is right next to them, you're actually doing LESS damage than you would if you had only one because the spread is just that damn high.
Part of the reason Halo 2 is so newbed up is the same reason that Counterstrike is newbed up - some of the weapons are just so retardedly innacurate that it simply does not matter when you aim at them. If plasma rifle had perfect accuracy, it could be more powerful than combo in the right hands (projectile travels faster).
The shotgun fires ten projectiles in a spread the size of your SCREEN. It's so hilariously inaccurate and random that it IS within realistic statistical possibility for the spread of every bullet to be SO wide that at point blank they all just wrap around the player, this is mostly because the spread of the shotgun is also shaped like a donut. This weapon is just useless, they probably made it this weak in order for sword to be powerful, but hey, guess what, if the shotgun had a spread equal to the reticle, then you would have to AIM with it, and they would just need to done the damage down so that it only kills you in one shot if every single bullet hits them, but wait, the magnetism is so strong that you will almost never skim them.
Man, Halo 3 is probably going to be worse...
Fouch said:
I personall think BXR and BXB would be fine in Halo 3 if they just turned down the auto aim. If you reduce the auto aim then the instant kill requires far more skill and with improved DW more risk to the player. You'd have to take the risk of getting point blank with someone, risk going into their best kill zone to attempt you own quick kill. At the same time it means that if a dual wielder manages to get close to you, you can do a quick counter and still live.
Very true, yes I do think that will add nice strategy in the game. So a DWer will try to stay away from a BR but not too far away. Hmm, that’s really interesting; this will be excellent if bungie decides to loose melee lunging. I can see why bungie implanted melee lunging but it truly caused more problems that it solved.
Anonymous said:
(the shotgun is) so hilariously inaccurate......This weapon is just useless
I totally agree with Fouch, this weapon is a different story offline.
Anonymous said:
The problem with dual wielding the increased spread. I've experimented with modding programs for the purposes of awesome and I determined that if you simply double the damage of the SMG it is a seriously awesome weapon. But in stock halo 2, there's so much spread when dual wielding smg and/or plasma rifle that unless your body is right next to them, you're actually doing LESS damage than you would if you had only one because the spread is just that damn high.
Hmmm, interesting, so you’re basically saying if the SMG damaged is increased it would fix the problem. Well I’m not one-hundred percent on that idea but I think if bungie allowed the SMG to be extremely accurate with the first few shots then recoil kicked in so it forces people to pulsed the SMG. Now with that damage increase you mentioned plus the game mechanic I've said will create a new and improved SMG, but doubling the power of the SMG will create a too strong of a weapon. Also this could make the SMG the new pistol of Halo if bungie allows it to be that accurate, which I doubt.
Also of course when DWing the recoil of the two SMGs should be ridiculous forcing the player two do one of two things: pulse both guns in tandem (bungie should make it hard in my opinion) or fire one at a time allowing the player to have more ammo and a constant stream of bullets hailing down on his/her opponents. Also if a player decides to push back on both guns it would only be effective when a player is really close to the opponent, it would basically rip the opponent to shreds, like the shotgun, except it would work. ( =
Anyways that’s just my opinion on the SMGs, other DW weapons I don’t really have an opinion on.
Just my thoughts...
I agree that on LAN a shotty can be extremely effective, on Live however it is pretty useless unless you are host.
In reality I can do without DW entirely. Several of the things Bungie did in Halo 2 they did because nobody else had really done them, or done them wholeheartedly. The idea of DW is cool in theory, but the breakdown of the actual use isn't that great. It has been shown throughout the years that a FPS can be extremely successful without DW. The gameplay variance can be great enough with shooting, melee and grenades to not even need dual wielding. The gun balance just gets thrown off with the addition of the dual wields and takes away from gameplay.
The sword and the melee lunging were added to be something original that Bungie felt they needed. However Bungie's original melee system was allready pretty original. yes other games use melee weapons, but they are all typically a last resort and only used when you are out of ammo on your good weapons (counter-strike knife, Bond slaps, Duke Nukem fist). However the melee system of Halo allows a player to simply punch an opponent any time they are within range. For what reason is an SEPARATE melee weapon necessary? It is still beyond me why Bungie felt the need for a separate, melee only weapon. I am just fine punching my opponent with a shotgun, BR, plasma rifle, pistol, rocket, etc. I don't think the idea of a separate weapon, which has a singular function of meleeing is necessary.
Oh and I don't think BXR or BXB will be an issue in Halo 3. The X button in Halo 2 essentially became a glitch button due to the fact that Bungie felt you needed a melee cancel (why?). Therefore the X button went from being a sword cancel button to being a melee animation cancel button, attributing to a plethora of glitches around its use. I don't think Bungie would make the mistake of having melee lunges, or flying sword characters or half of the dumb stuff in Halo 2, but that's just my belief. For all I know the guys at Bungie could think Halo 2 is pure gold.
No, I'm not saying the SMG needs an increase damage at ALL. The maximum amount of damage output of dual smgs is fine and in theory is more powerful than the battle rifle at midrange.
The problem is when firing both weapons, the spread/recoil on the bullets is SO RIDICULOUSLY WIDE that you LOSE DAMAGE OUTPUT unless the weapon is right against their chest. There is no point to dual wielding ANY weapon except plasma pistol + smg/magnum, because all retardedness about the PP aside, it's the one combo where there isn't an increase in spread.
If firing two SMGs had equal spread to firing one, or dual wield did not exist and the SMG simply did double damage, then it would be an effective weapon.
Anonymous said...
No, I'm not saying the SMG needs an increase damage at ALL. The maximum amount of damage output of dual smgs is fine and in theory is more powerful than the battle rifle at midrange.
OH, I'm sorry I misread your post. The issue you've mentioned seems to be with the network code with the game. Have you tried the game in system Link/Split Screen? It's most likely better there.
JUST a Thought?!?! Has anyone ever thought about contacting Bungie and asking them if a Contracted out group of game developers could take Halo 1 and add Xbox live to it? Essentially we could get a community of programmers to program Xbox Live code into Halo 1 and keep it just how it is. We wouldn't be changed the game around so copyrighting wouldn't be a problem. M$ would enjoy this because it would definately mean more subscriptions to xbox live. The cost in doing such a thing would not be that much and Bungie might be willing to do it if they DO NO work at all and see a percentage of profits from the sale of the new updated game. Basically they get free money from letting us programmers fix a much needed problem. Plenty of programmers would do this for minimal pay or even free.
I've said ever since Halo 2 came out that regardless of how much of a gamer outcry there was for a Halo 1 on XBL it would never happen. The main reason would be that it would be a step backward and going in a direction Bungie does not want to pursue. There is no way that they would put out H1 on live and watch the servers grow and grow and grow until there were more people playing their bottle of lighting then playing their "finely tuned" Halo 2.
The reality of trying to do something like that is pretty far off due numerous problems with the design of the multiplayer coding of Halo 1. It's not like they could just boot up on a debug box and add an XBL menu below "System Link" and all would be well. That would require months of programming and rigorous testing, not to mention the authentication by Microsoft to be admitted onto XBL servers. Everyone would buy it, but it's never gonna happen.
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